APOD: Almahata Sitta 15 (2009 March 28)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Almahata Sitta 15 (2009 March 28)

Breast of new-fallen polymict olivine-pigeonite achondrite

by neufer » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:56 pm

bystander wrote:NASA Discovers Asteroid Delivered Assortment of Meteorites

<<The recovery team made history when they found the first-ever freshly fallen mixed-composition, or polymict ureilite.
The majority of the remaining fragments are similar to the more common types of meteorites called chondrites.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ureilite wrote:
<<Ureilite (a.k.a., olivine-pigeonite achondrite) is a rare type of stony meteorite that has a unique mineralogical composition very different from that of other stony meteorites. This dark grey or brownish meteorite type is named after the village Novy Urey, Mordovia Republic of Russia, where a meteorite of this type fell on 4 September 1886. Notable ureilites are the Novo Urei and the Goalpara, also named for the town in which it landed (Goalpara, Assam India). On 7 October 2008, tiny asteroid 2008 TC3 entered the Earth's atmosphere and exploded an estimated 37 kilometers (23 mi) above the Nubian Desert in Sudan. Fragments of this asteroid were recovered the following December and were found to be ureilite. Scientists have discovered amino acids, the building blocks of life in this meteorite 2008 TC3 where none were expected taking into account the high temperatures reached in the explosion about 1000 ºC. Compared to most other meteorites, ureilites tend to have a high percentage of carbon (average 3% by weight) in the form of graphite and nanodiamonds. The diamonds, which are rarely more than a few micrometres in diameter, are probably the result of high pressure shockwaves produced by collisions of the ureilite parent body with other asteroids. Ureilites can be divided into two subcategories: monomict and polymict. Monomict ureilites are coarse grained with olivine usually more abundant than pyroxene. Polymict ureilites are a mixture of clasts of dissimilar composition.>>
http://www.geokhi.ru/~meteorit/opis/novo-urei-e.html wrote:
Image
460 g piece of NOVO-UREI Ureilite
Mordovia Fall, September 4, 1886
<<The Novy Urey meteorite is the type specimen of a new type of meteorites, ureilites. Erofeev and Lachinov, Russian scientists, first discovered diamonds of cosmic origin in the Novy Urey (Cyrillic: Новый Урей).

"In the morning several peasants plowed their field 3 km from a village. The day was gloomy, the whole northeastern sky was covered by clouds. Suddenly a light appeared all around. In several seconds a strong report was heard, like a cannon or explosion. Then came a second, louder noise. With a loud noise a fireball fell to Earth a few meters from the peasants. Frightened, they did not know what to do. They fell to the ground and could not move for a long time. They thought it was a strong thunderstorm, and that thunderbolts were falling from the sky. Finally, one of them, more brave, came to the place where the thunderbolt had fallen, and to his surprise found only a shallow hole. In the middle of the hole a black stone lay half-buried in the soil."

- P.I. Baryshnikov, the teacher, Kirensk City, 1886 г.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by bystander » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:16 pm

NASA Discovers Asteroid Delivered Assortment of Meteorites
NASA HQ | 15 Dec 2010
An international team of scientists studying remnants of an asteroid that crashed into the Nubian Desert in October 2008 discovered it contained at least 10 different types of meteorites. Some of them contained chemicals that form the building blocks of life on Earth, and those chemicals were spread through all parts of the asteroid by collisions.

Chemists at Stanford University found that different meteorite types share the same distinct fingerprint of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). These complex organic molecules are distributed throughout the galaxy and form on Earth from incomplete combustion.

A research team from NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., found amino acids in strongly heated fragments of the asteroid, where all such molecules should have been destroyed. Both PAHs and amino acids are considered building blocks of life.

Before landing on Earth, the 13-foot asteroid was detected by a telescope from the NASA-sponsored Catalina Sky Survey based at the University of Arizona in Tucson. Hours prior to its demise, astronomers and scientists around the world tracked and scanned the asteroid. It was the first time a celestial object was observed prior to entering Earth's atmosphere.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., created a search grid and impact target area. The data helped Peter Jenniskens, an astronomer at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif., and the SETI Institute of Mountain View, Calif., guide a recovery team from the University of Khartoum in Sudan to search the desert landscape. During four expeditions, approximately 150 students recovered nearly 600 meteorite fragments weighing a total of more than 23 pounds.

"Right from the start, the students were surprised to find so much diversity in meteorite texture and hue," said Muawia Shaddad, an astronomer at the University of Khartoum, who led the search effort. "We estimate the asteroid initially weighed about 59 tons, of which about 86 pounds survived the explosion high in the atmosphere."

Subsequently, scientists determined most of the fragments are a rare type of meteorite called ureilites. Less than 10 of the nearly 1,000 known meteorites are ureilites. The recovery team made history when they found the first-ever freshly fallen mixed-composition, or polymict ureilite. The majority of the remaining fragments are similar to the more common types of meteorites called chondrites.

Other Ames researchers showed the ureilite fragments contained widely varying amounts of the minerals called olivine and pyroxene. Carnegie Institute of Washington researchers found these minerals have the full range of oxygen atom signatures detected in previous ureilites. Scientists believe this is evidence all ureilites originated from the same source, called the ureilite parent body. Astronomers theorize the parent body experienced a giant collision approximately 4.5 billion years ago and caused iron-rich minerals to smelt into metallic iron. However, the olivine and pyroxene didn't melt, which allowed the oxygen atoms in them to stay in the same arrangement as when they first formed.

Researchers at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston were able to deduce that much of the ureilite parent body was reduced to fragments measuring 30 to 300 feet during this giant collision. After the catastrophic collision, scientists believe the material that ended up making 2008 TC3 had a long history of violent collisions and impacts. These later collisions ground the fragments down into the smaller sand grain-sized pieces that gathered loosely together with many voids.

Researchers believe the amino acids were delivered to 2008 TC3 during the later impacts, or formed directly from trapped gases as the asteroid cooled following the giant collision. Other non-ureilite types of meteorites also became part of the asteroid. To date, ten different meteorite types have been identified, accounting for 20-30 percent of the asteroid's recovered remains.

"Asteroids have just become a lot more interesting," Jenniskens said. "We were surprised to find that not all of the meteorites we recovered were the same, even though we are certain they came from the same asteroid."

Astronomers have known asteroids orbiting the sun frequently are broken and reassembled during collisions, but until now they thought little mixing occurred because asteroids, or impactors that broke them apart, are usually very small. The research is featured in 20 papers published this week in an issue of the Meteoritical Society's journal Meteoritics and Planetary Science.
Asteroid's Coat of Many Colors
NASA Astrobiology | 19 Dec 2010
Scientists have discovered that an asteroid that crashed into the Nubian Desert in 2008 delivered at least 10 different types of meteorites. Some of the meteorites contain chemicals that are thought to have been important for the origin of life on Earth.

Movie showing the discovery images of 2008 TC. Images taken at around 06:30 UTC on Oct. 6, 2008. The asteroid was at 19th magnitude and moving at 2.5 degrees per day.

Credit: Richard Kowalski and Ed Beshore, Catalina Sky Survey

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by bystander » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:10 pm

Building Blocks of Life Created in "Impossible" Place
NASA Astrobiology | 16 Dec 2010
Researchers from the NASA Astrobiology Program have discovered amino acids in a meteorite where none were expected.

“This meteorite formed when two asteroids collided,” said Dr. Daniel Glavin of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. “The shock of the collision heated it to more than 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough that all complex organic molecules like amino acids should have been destroyed, but we found them anyway.” Glavin is lead author of a paper on this discovery appearing December 15 in Meteoritics and Planetary Science. “Finding them in this type of meteorite suggests that there is more than one way to make amino acids in space, which increases the chance for finding life elsewhere in the Universe.”

Amino acids are used to make proteins, the workhorse molecules of life, used in everything from structures like hair to enzymes, the catalysts that speed up or regulate chemical reactions. Just as the 26 letters of the alphabet are arranged in limitless combinations to make words, life uses 20 different amino acids in a huge variety of arrangements to build millions of different proteins. Previously, scientists at the Goddard Astrobiology Analytical Laboratory have found amino acids in samples of comet Wild 2 from NASA’s Stardust mission, and in various carbon-rich meteorites. Finding amino acids in these objects supports the theory that the origin of life got a boost from space — some of life’s ingredients formed in space and were delivered to Earth long ago by meteorite impacts.

When Dr. Peter Jenniskens of the SETI Institute, Mountain View, Calif., and NASA’s Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., approached NASA with the suggestion to search for amino acids in the carbon-rich remnants of asteroid 2008 TC3, expectations were that nothing was to be found. Because of an unusually violent collision in the past, this asteroid’s ingredients for life were a “culinary disaster” and now mostly in the form of graphite. The small asteroid, estimated at six to fifteen feet across, was the first to be detected in space prior to impact on Earth on October 7, 2008. When Jenniskens and Dr. Muawia Shaddad of the University of Khartoum recovered remnants in the Nubian Desert of northern Sudan, the remnants turned out to be the first Ureilite meteorites found in pristine condition.

A meteorite sample was divided between the Goddard lab and a lab at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California, San Diego. “Our analyses confirm those obtained at Goddard,” said Professor Jeffrey Bada of Scripps, who led the analysis there. The extremely sensitive equipment in both labs detected small amounts of 19 different amino acids in the sample, ranging from 0.5 to 149 parts per billion. The team had to be sure that the amino acids in the meteorite didn’t come from contamination by life on Earth, and they were able to do so because of the way amino acids are made. Amino acid molecules can be built in two ways that are mirror images of each other, like your hands. Life on Earth uses left-handed amino acids, and they are never mixed with right-handed ones, but the amino acids found in the meteorite had equal amounts of the left and right-handed varieties.

The sample had various minerals that only form under high temperatures, indicating it was forged in a violent collision. It’s possible that the amino acids are simply leftovers from one of the original asteroids in the collision – an asteroid that had better conditions for amino acid formation. Dr. Jennifer Blank of SETI has done experiments with amino acids in water and ice, showing they survive pressures and temperatures comparable to a low-angle comet-Earth impact or asteroid-asteroid collisions.

However, the team thinks it’s unlikely amino acids could have survived the conditions that created the meteorite, which endured higher temperatures – more than 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (over 1,100 Celsius) – over a much longer period. “It would be hard to transfer amino acids from an impactor to another body simply because of the high-energy conditions associated with the impact,” said Bada.

Instead, the team believes there’s an alternate method for making amino acids in space. “Previously, we thought the simplest way to make amino acids in an asteroid was at cooler temperatures in the presence of liquid water. This meteorite suggests there’s another way involving reactions in gases as a very hot asteroid cools down,” said Glavin. The team is planning experiments to test various gas-phase chemical reactions to see if they generate amino acids.

Fragments of 2008 TC3 are collectively called “Almahata Sitta” or “Station Six” after the train stop in northern Sudan near the location where pieces were recovered. They are prized because they are Ureilites, a rare type of meteorite. “An interesting possibility is that Ureilites are thought by some researchers to have formed in the solar nebula and thus the findings of amino acids in Almahata Sitta might imply that amino acids were in fact synthesized very early in the history of the solar system,” adds Bada.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by bystander » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:42 pm

Meteorite just one piece of an unknown celestial body
Carnegie Institution for Science | 15 Dec 2010
Image
Scientists from all over the world are taking a second, more expansive, look at the car-sized asteroid that exploded over Sudan's Nubian Desert in 2008. Initial research was focused on classifying the meteorite fragments that were collected two to five months after they were strewn across the desert and tracked by NASA's Near Earth Object astronomical network. Now in a series of 20 papers for a special issue of the journal Meteoritics and Planetary Science, published on December 15, researchers have expanded their work to demonstrate the diversity of these fragments, with major implications for the meteorite's origin.

In the first round of research, Carnegie Geophysical scientist Doug Rumble, in collaboration with Muawia Shaddad of the University of Khartoum, examined one fragment of the asteroid, called 2008 TC3, and determined that it fell into a very rare category of meteorite called ureilites. Ureilites have a very different composition from most other meteorites. It has been suggested that all members of this meteoric family might have originated from the same source, called the ureilite parent body, which could have been a proto-planet.

Now Rumble has expanded his work to examine 11 meteorite fragments, focusing on the presence of oxygen isotopes. Isotopes are atoms of the same element that have extra neutrons in their nuclei.

Rumble explains: "Oxygen isotopes can be used to identify the meteorite's parent body and determine whether all the fragments indeed came from the same source. Each parent body of meteorites in the Solar System, including the Moon, Mars, and the large asteroid Vesta, has a distinctive signature of oxygen isotopes that can be recognized even when other factors, such as chemical composition and type of rock, are different."

Rumble and his team prepped tiny crumbs of these 11 meteorite fragments and loaded them into a reaction chamber where they were heated with a laser and underwent chemical reactions to release oxygen and then used another device, called a mass spectrometer, to measure the concentrations of these oxygen isotopes. Results showed that the full range of oxygen isotopes known to be present in ureilites were also present in the studied fragments.

"It was already known that the fragments in the Nubian Desert came from the same asteroid. Taking that into account, these new results demonstrate that the asteroid’s source, the ureilite parent body, also had a diversity of oxygen isotopes," says Rumble.

The diversity of oxygen isotopes found in ureilites probably arises from the circumstances of the parent this body's formation. Rumble theorizes that the rock components of this parent body were heated to the point of melting and then cooled into crystals so quickly that the oxygen isotopes present could not come to an equilibrium distribution throughout.

Together the collection of 20 papers published in Meteoritics and Planetary Science offer enormous insight about the formation and composition of ureilites and their hypothesized parent body.
__________________

For more information on the Seti Asima project visit: http://asima.seti.org/2008TC3/.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by neufer » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:39 am

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090328.html
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002138/ wrote:
2008 TC3: One year later (a 365 Days of Astronomy podcast)
By Emily Lakdawalla Oct. 5, 2009 | 14:53 PDT | 21:53 UTC

<<Tomorrow it'll be one year exactly since the first time ever an astronomer on Earth discovered an object that had a 100% certainty of hitting the planet. Fortunately, the object named 8TA9D69, then renamed 2008 TC3, turned out to be small enough not to present any real hazard to anybody or anything on the ground. There was a special session at the Division of Planetary Sciences meeting on 2008 TC3 today (called "From the Heavens to the Earth: The 2008 TC3 / Almahata Sitta Ureilite Fall"), with presentations on the discovery and observations of 2008 TC3 in space, the discovery of meteorites on the ground, and detailed analysis of those meteorites. There was no Earth-shakingly new science in any of the abstracts or the associated press release. They did note that the asteroid is "among the most cooked of all known meteorites" yet it still contains "polycyclic aromatic hyrdrocarbons in high abundances" and "amazingly...some amino acids have survived."

I think the coolest thing released today were these two videos. The first represents actual telescopic images of 2008 TC3. The video is sped up of course, but even accounting for the fact that it's a time-lapse video I get a real sense of how incredibly speedily 2008 TC3 must have been moving across the sky from the incredible smear and rate of motion of the star trails. >>

This image of asteroid 2008 TC3 exploding in the atmosphere above northern Sudan
was taken by local resident Muawia Shaddad on the morning of October 7, 2008.
Image
Image

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:21 pm

JohnD wrote:And why aren't Earth and Mars so different, Chris? The Almahata thread made the point that a meteorite as small as that would be slowed in Earth's atmosphere to a terminal velocity too small to cause a crater. Which wouldn't be true on Mars (?). Would a very much faster impact from as small an object cause such a crater?
The two planets do differ with respect to the dynamics of meteorite producing events. But that is quite different from crater forming events like the one on Mars. In the first case, atmospheric drag removes all of the parent body's initial velocity, and it (or what's left of it) falls in a manner determined only by the planet's gravity. atmospheric density. and wind. In the second case, the planet's gravity and atmosphere are much less important- and the bigger the parent, the more that's the case.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by JohnD » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:13 am

Yes, without an estimate of the size of Resolution it's a bit hard to use that otherwise excellent site, BMA.

And why aren't Earth and Mars so different, Chris? The Almahata thread made the point that a meteorite as small as that would be slowed in Earth's atmosphere to a terminal velocity too small to cause a crater. Which wouldn't be true on Mars (?). Would a very much faster impact from as small an object cause such a crater?

John

Re: Different strokes

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:47 am

JohnD wrote:A meteroid impact on Earth and Mars will be completely different, due to atmosphere and gravity.
But how big would have been the rock that caused Resolution crater?
Actually, the difference between what happens on Mars and on Earth isn't all that different. It depends very much on the velocity of the impactor (kinetic energy scales as the square of velocity). But figure that an impactor is probably between 1% and 10% of the final crater size. I don't see in the caption for the image you link what the actual crater size is, however.

Re: Different strokes

by BMAONE23 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:04 pm

JohnD wrote:All,
A recent APOD, of the Almahata Sita meterorite led to all sorts of allegations here about the veracity of the report, as there was no crater.
See: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090328.html
and the thread here on this site.

Now Opportunity has encountered the "youngest crater seen on Mars". It may be only 100,000 years old!
See: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20090429.html

A meteroid impact on Earth and Mars will be completely different, due to atmosphere and gravity.
But how big would have been the rock that caused Resolution crater?

And how about this as an Apod?
John
try this on for size
from here
of course, without the impactor remnants being found, some assumptions had to be made

Different strokes

by JohnD » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:31 pm

All,
A recent APOD, of the Almahata Sita meterorite led to all sorts of allegations here about the veracity of the report, as there was no crater.
See: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090328.html
and the thread here on this site.

Now Opportunity has encountered the "youngest crater seen on Mars". It may be only 100,000 years old!
See: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20090429.html

A meteroid impact on Earth and Mars will be completely different, due to atmosphere and gravity.
But how big would have been the rock that caused Resolution crater?

And how about this as an Apod?
John

Re: Almahata Sitta 15

by rstevenson » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:36 am

The fragment shown in that picture is only 4 cm wide -- about the size of a largeish walnut. Surely it could have bounced a little as it was coming to rest, leaving behind whatever crater or skid marks it had created. And from the angle at which the picture was taken, I wouldn't expect to see much of a trail anyway. It looks like the camera is sitting on the ground.

Rob

... And I just realized this question had been asked and answered several times in the other (the first) Almahata Sitta thread, and I believe it is advised that we keep all questions relating to one APOD image in one thread. Sorry about that.

Almahata Sitta 15

by Sebastian » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:30 am

I find it anomalous that fragment #15, as pictured, appears to have made NO dint in the desert surface at all. Surely it should have made at least a small crater ? Or a skid path...

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:39 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Exactly. Which is presumably why nobody has used "vertical" without qualification.
Still too close to vertical for my love of language. How about providing some angles? Maybe now I'm nitpicking. My apologies if so.
Chris wrote:I collect fireball reports as part of my meteor research, and I have several hundred reporting similar impressions. The apparent nearness of fireballs is a powerful illusion (I've seen it myself). People often report that fireballs dropped behind their neighbor's house, or in the next field, despite the fact that this isn't possible.

In the case of the fireball you saw, the object was traveling at least 5 km/s, since less than that is too slow for ablation and the generation of enough heat to be visible. Its height depends a great deal on its mass- the more mass an object has, the lower it can get into the atmosphere. For a really bright fireball, however, something around 20 miles at the end would be a reasonable estimate. So given your description, it's very likely you were seeing something that was 200 or more miles away.
Your information is comforting, because the other guys in the trailer were not looking out the window and thought the fireball was the result of the many red and orange, white spotted Amanita mushrooms I had been eating over a few days. I had my own doubts at the time, so it's good to know I saw what I saw.
Chris wrote: The fireball you saw that made a sizzling sound is an example of electrophonic noise. This is sometimes produced by auroras as well. It isn't very well understood, and is fairly rare. When we have a large fireball, I may receive 500 reports, and of those, two or three people might report electrophonic noise. It is presumed to be caused by VLF emissions from ionization in the meteor trail, which is transduced to sound by objects near the observer: eyeglass frames, jewelry, barbecue grills, metal garage doors.
Again, thanks for your confirmation, because many people just looked at me like I was a stoned hippy on the brink of too severe an experience of mind expansion. I think I did have my eyeglasses on. At the time, and still today, I had an instinct that I was deeply priviledged to be hearing and seeing what I was experiencing, especially as the Northern Lights were simply grand and awesome. I had taken my sleeping bag down the railroad track for a 'night out' from the railroad gang's sleeping cars' hard roof, and away from camp noise. Mid Autumn. I should write a poem, but few people would read it because I'm not a famous poet writing drivel.
Chris wrote:If you're interested in meteors, you might want to check my meteor page, which has general information as well as reports on a lot of big fireballs over the last 8 years.
Thanks for this also.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:43 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:True but 89 degrees, though less than vertical, is still close ehough to it.
A fairly extreme example (and I don't know of any such in actuality) would be a small stone with a low 50 m/s terminal velocity, caught in a sustained 20 mph wind during the last of its fall. That would be enough to knock it about 10° out of vertical. But looking at cases where meteorites have hit objects, or left dents on the ground, or even been witnessed to fall, they all seem to be no more than a few degrees at most from vertical.

I investigated a witnessed fall a few years ago here in Colorado, the Berthoud meteorite. Its impact was witnessed as it hit packed, but fairly soft ground in a corral. It did not bounce or roll at all, but just lay right in the middle of a little dent that followed the form of the meteorite. Terminal velocity was about 75 m/s, ground level wind was no more than 3 m/s. Typical. There is some limited evidence that the initial trajectory was closer to horizontal than vertical; if so, all of that was lost.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by BMAONE23 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:02 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:The horizontal component is determined by the wind speed during the last few seconds of the fall, typically no more than a few meters per second. So the impact is close to vertical.
I don't think I'm nitpicking when I say 'close to vertical' is not 'vertical'. Like the Dr. of Language said in another thread, 'language is important.'
True but 89 degrees, though less than vertical, is still close ehough to it.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:42 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:I don't think I'm nitpicking when I say 'close to vertical' is not 'vertical'.
Exactly. Which is presumably why nobody has used "vertical" without qualification.
Thanks again, Chris. All I can say is the fireball was large, the flames were flames as if in a fire so the velocity must have been low, and to my line of sight it was flying horizontally just above the horizon outside my window, and it was like, Wow!
I collect fireball reports as part of my meteor research, and I have several hundred reporting similar impressions. The apparent nearness of fireballs is a powerful illusion (I've seen it myself). People often report that fireballs dropped behind their neighbor's house, or in the next field, despite the fact that this isn't possible.

In the case of the fireball you saw, the object was traveling at least 5 km/s, since less than that is too slow for ablation and the generation of enough heat to be visible. Its height depends a great deal on its mass- the more mass an object has, the lower it can get into the atmosphere. For a really bright fireball, however, something around 20 miles at the end would be a reasonable estimate. So given your description, it's very likely you were seeing something that was 200 or more miles away.

The fireball you saw that made a sizzling sound is an example of electrophonic noise. This is sometimes produced by auroras as well. It isn't very well understood, and is fairly rare. When we have a large fireball, I may receive 500 reports, and of those, two or three people might report electrophonic noise. It is presumed to be caused by VLF emissions from ionization in the meteor trail, which is transduced to sound by objects near the observer: eyeglass frames, jewelry, barbecue grills, metal garage doors.

If you're interested in meteors, you might want to check my meteor page, which has general information as well as reports on a lot of big fireballs over the last 8 years.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by aristarchusinexile » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:01 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:The horizontal component is determined by the wind speed during the last few seconds of the fall, typically no more than a few meters per second. So the impact is close to vertical.
I don't think I'm nitpicking when I say 'close to vertical' is not 'vertical'. Like the Dr. of Language said in another thread, 'language is important.'
Chris wrote:"Cosmic velocity" just refers to the initial velocity of the object; meteorites only carry a component of this when they are large enough to not be completely slowed by drag- fortunately, that happens only very rarely.
Thanks.
Chris wrote:You've never seen a fireball close to the ground, because meteors stop burning when they are 10 miles or more (usually much more) above the ground. In addition, there's no way to really tell from a single viewpoint what the actual orientation of a meteor path is with respect to the ground. It is common to see meteors that appear to be horizontal, but those are still high in the atmosphere. Once they slow down enough to stop burning, they will quickly lose all their forward velocity and drop vertically for several minutes before hitting the ground (assuming any material survives, of course). When you see what appears to be a low flying fireball, you're seeing something high in the atmosphere and 100 miles or more away.
Thanks again, Chris. All I can say is the fireball was large, the flames were flames as if in a fire so the velocity must have been low, and to my line of sight it was flying horizontally just above the horizon outside my window, and it was like, Wow! This happened in the black of night, about 30 years ago, in Northern Ontario. I was working on a railroad maintenance gang camped in boarding cars far, far out in the Northwoods. Another interesting thing about the experience was that it confirmed for me personally the existence of fireballs up until then I had seen only in paintings and drawings, much like the Blue Moon .. it is a real blue moon, not just the second full moon of the month. I have seen two genuinely Blue Moons, also in the Northwoods, in the winter. I also saw a fireball high up, seeming to fly through Northern Lights which were strong and vibrant, and the fireball actually 'sizzled' as it flew through the lights. Static Perhaps?

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:03 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Skipping stone meteorites seem to be common on moons. I saw a fireball flying low and horizontally here on earth. What do you classify as cosmic velocity? Why do you say they have to hit vertically?
On the Moon, or any airless body, meteorites can impact at any angle, and always carry their cosmic velocity. On Earth, however, they are slowed to terminal velocity by atmospheric drag while still miles above the ground. They lose all their cosmic velocity. At impact, the vertical component of their velocity is determined by drag (terminal velocity), and is typically 50-100 m/s. The horizontal component is determined by the wind speed during the last few seconds of the fall, typically no more than a few meters per second. So the impact is close to vertical.

"Cosmic velocity" just refers to the initial velocity of the object; meteorites only carry a component of this when they are large enough to not be completely slowed by drag- fortunately, that happens only very rarely.

You've never seen a fireball close to the ground, because meteors stop burning when they are 10 miles or more (usually much more) above the ground. In addition, there's no way to really tell from a single viewpoint what the actual orientation of a meteor path is with respect to the ground. It is common to see meteors that appear to be horizontal, but those are still high in the atmosphere. Once they slow down enough to stop burning, they will quickly lose all their forward velocity and drop vertically for several minutes before hitting the ground (assuming any material survives, of course). When you see what appears to be a low flying fireball, you're seeing something high in the atmosphere and 100 miles or more away.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by bystander » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:59 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Skipping stone meteorites seem to be common on moons. I saw a fireball flying low and horizontally here on earth. What do you classify as cosmic velocity? Why do you say they have to hit vertically?
Most meterites have been decelerated by the earth's atmosphere to the point that they are essentially in free fall by the time they reach the ground.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by aristarchusinexile » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:45 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:Plus .. the meteorite's tragectory will effect impact on landing, correct (?) If it flies horizontally it will lose speed (?) I think these things are clear but I feel uncharacteristically unemphatic today, resulting in the (?)
Meteorites always hit the ground from very close to vertical- there's no way they can do otherwise unless they still retain some of their cosmic velocity, in which case they form craters- fortunately, a very rare thing!
Skipping stone meteorites seem to be common on moons. I saw a fireball flying low and horizontally here on earth. What do you classify as cosmic velocity? Why do you say they have to hit vertically?

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:22 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Plus .. the meteorite's tragectory will effect impact on landing, correct (?) If it flies horizontally it will lose speed (?) I think these things are clear but I feel uncharacteristically unemphatic today, resulting in the (?)
Meteorites always hit the ground from very close to vertical- there's no way they can do otherwise unless they still retain some of their cosmic velocity, in which case they form craters- fortunately, a very rare thing!

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by aristarchusinexile » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:59 pm

Plus .. the meteorite's tragectory will effect impact on landing, correct (?) If it flies horizontally it will lose speed (?) I think these things are clear but I feel uncharacteristically unemphatic today, resulting in the (?)

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:22 pm

jaan wrote:It would seem to me that even a 1-1/2" size volcanic meteorite fragment would have quite an impact and not just lay flat on a surface. Try dropping anything of that size from even a 6 story building and it will leave some mark of impact. The photograph feels like the metiorite was found elsewhere, placed on a flat area for strickly a photo opp. Sorry.
It is very typical for small meteorites (up to a few kilograms) to be found simply sitting on the surface. If they land in soft soil they usually make a dent, but meteorites landing on a hard desert or lake bed surface often don't.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 (APOD 2009 March 28)

by BMAONE23 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:32 pm

jaan wrote:It would seem to me that even a 1-1/2" size volcanic meteorite fragment would have quite an impact and not just lay flat on a surface. Try dropping anything of that size from even a 6 story building and it will leave some mark of impact. The photograph feels like the metiorite was found elsewhere, placed on a flat area for strickly a photo opp. Sorry.
Yes it will but it will also bounce away from the initial point of impact and come to rest where it leaves little or no mark at all unless you drop it in sand but the desert region in the image is more hard pack stony soil.

Re: Almahata Sitta 15 - Impact crater?

by BMAONE23 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:30 pm

The fragment is sitting asand where it was actually found. It is scarsely 1.5" or 4cm accross. It carried very little kinetic energy with it when it hit. It hit in an area of firmly packed rocky soil and likely bounced some feet away from the initial impact place. Weighing only grams. it wouldn't create an impaact crater. Considering they found 280 pieces for a total of 5000 gms the average piece weighs only 17+grams. Very Small Pieces will not create a crater.

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